lol it is funny because it is true.

It's a purely individual moral viewpoint.

You're a christian; you think it's a child because God gave it a soul at the moment of conception, despite the fact that it would never have survived or even developed into a human being.

Potentially save a life or throw it in the rubbish. Either way the blastocyst dies.

dude cells are made of atoms atoms get replaces gradually over an 8 year time frame nice try to enrage me but aint even mad

I'll quote it again. I even bolded the key parts last time.

Human trials, as in treatment on humans. First you argued that the same research has been going on with both adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells for the same period, then you posted yourself showing how that isn't so, while mistaking research on the cells themselves for clinical trials with people.

They didn't begin human trials until 2009 in any country. China has never had a clinical trial on humans with ES cells.


You said yourself "We don't call children adults", but you're calling an embryo a kid? Can you please change your name to Embryo just to avoid further confusion? Otherwise I might mistakenly think you're a fully grown adult, as opposed to the somewhat confused blastocyst that I'm parrying in this debate.


The ES cells come from IVF clinics.

But your argument is self defeating yer. As I don't see you talking, about how it is not ok for U.S to invade and kill all those iraqis yer. So your opinions on how it is not ok to kill unborn babies is redundant yer. See how logic works?

I'm ok with embryonic stem cells being used in research to further medical advancement, but I'm not ok with the slaughter of innocent civilians.

You're not ok with embryonic stem cells being taken from embryos that are otherwise going to be discarded, but you're ok with innocent civilians being killed in pointless wars, capital punishment, women having to carry their brother or father's incestuous seed to term before dying in childbirth while their deformed sibling/child is being delivered, cats being thrown in sacks and drowned, dogs being beaten, racism and homophobia. Shine on you crazy diamond!



http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/23/stem.cell/

chero its nice to see u making solid input to the forums again - dont know how u do it in this case exhausting to and fro - but its good to see

u can support one part of a nation while criticizing another - say for example a nations scientific research endeavors VS a nations militaristic endeavors

unless that is the invasion force is made up of scientists armed with lab equipment

In light of your fiery mental passing, this would be apparent.

No it is more a scienctific fact.


I don't believe in it because i am a Christian. I am Christian because i believe in it.
And yes it would have survived


1. Sure it has the potenial to save lives. if glueing Chicken feathers on my arms give me the potenial to fly.
2. At least you now admitt that the blastocyst is alive. Thats a start

1.Neurons in the cerebral cortex are never replaced. There are no neurons added to your cerebral cortex after birth. Any cerebral cortex neurons that die are not replaced.
You're too be mad, too useless to get even. And go fectch dorkins or are you scared i will smah him?

Are you saying that china hasn't been conducting human trials since before 2003. Or are you saying human embryos are not human?



China has. in fact they had to review their law on the matter because of international pressure about them trying to clone humans.


Which is why in a previous post i said ivf is wrong. I didn't or haven't been going on about it because it wasn't the topic.



Yeah hey. cause all those embryos being killed were involved in 9/11 hey?


I don't recall saying that it is ok to kill Innocent civilians. I don't give a **** about capital punishment. People deserve it. What woman was raped by her father/brother and forced to give birth to the deformed child? I have never put a cat in a sack and thrown it in the river. My dog gets a kick in the guts when it does something wrong for sure. Racism can be useful and homophobia doesn't exists. but that is besides the point.
The point was you claimed i shouldn't speak out against abortion because i eat meat. I am saying to you. Don't cry about war when you are all for killing of unborn babies/humans.



I guess you never heard of the term "tax write off"?


Not sidestepping. Better results. Well..Only results

LOL

so what your saying the brain dosent grow at all after birth 10/10 troll or 0/10 smart dont know anymore
the only thing your smashing is an alter boys ***
you know what i dont get why the heck religious organizations dont pay tax i just dont get it they ger ritch while we have to pay tax i have an idia to start a church were we worship zyzz but its really a gym and i get ripped and rich

What about cows rights? We could be killing the next Albert Einstein just so we can buy a triple cheeseburger.

Sigh.. The brain. Is made up of many different things. Cerebral cortex is not some latin name for brain. It is just one component that makes up our.. Well normal ppl brains. Obviously not yours. So i will say it again. The cereberal cortex does not grow or replace atoms, cells anything. Ok? If you don't agree take it up with science.

What a strange thing to be thinking about beets. I mean ppl talking to you about cerebral cortexs or stem cell research. And you break out in to some pedophilia day dream. I mean why is a grown man sitting at his computer thinking about ppl having sex with a child beets? Does the school know you daydream about these types of things beets? I knew you was gay beets, what with you looking for any chance to post pics of topless men n all . but a pedo as well? Man that is sick.

This is concerning. I might shoot off an email to hshs head teacher.

i saw it on qi you know they are right your bones dont get replaced thou

Religious people fighting against stem cells is starting to sound a lot like Greens fighting against mining.

The only difference is. I use science.

O well if british comedians say it is true. It must be

qi are factchecked

"Science" and "your science" are two completely different things.

says he uses science says evolution is wrong

greens are against mining now?

****

Not very well

na man it is you who doesent fact check

No it's your opinion.



I never said the blastocyst wasn't alive. I said it wasn't human.

You'd be the first one begging to be treated if you were going to die.

I'm saying that no country was conducting human trials with human embryos before 2009.

There's an important distinction that needs to be made between research on what were the existing stem cell lines, which even Bush allowed, and clinicals trials on humans, which were vehemently opposed by Bush and the christian right. It's what the whole debate has been about for the last decade and a half.


No, they haven't. You're deliberately trying to blur the line between research with the ES cells, and actual clinical trials on adult humans. No country had done it before 2009. They might have been using human embryos in research, but not in research treating people in clinical trials. Cloning is not a treatment, it's cloning.


You haven't been going on about it because before this thread you probably didn't even know that the ES cells used in research were obtained from IVF clinics that were going to discard them.

Now that you know about it, you're trying to play it down, which seems rather ridiculous considering that what should arguably be the most important line of attack against ES cell research is where the actual embryos are coming from.


Funny you should mention that, because not a single one of the terrorists implicated in the attacks were Iraqi, had ever been to Iraq, or had any ties to Iraq. Saddam was as complicit in the 9/11 attacks as an embryo. Fantastic logic.



I couldn't make this stuff up. It's good that you're owning up to abusing your dog and being a bigot.


The point was that you think certain life should be valued over other life, then denigrate others for thinking the same thing. The difference being that your position is not one based on the moral consideration given to that life, but instead on the sheepish bandwagon of objection levelled by the christian right, that has no basis in science (or even scripture for that matter), nor any consideration for what is ironically the negative impact on the human species given the impediments ES cell research has had on it's progress.


Even if the company didn't fund it with their own coffers before they'd gotten federal approval (but not federal funding), and even if they could get some of that funding written off on tax, it would still be tens of millions of dollars coming from the company itself.

Originally you said "You think the massive research companies wouldn't be all over embryonic research if there was money to be made?", then when I showed you that many companies are indeed all over that ****, you still won't concede, and grasp desperately to try and change the direction of the argument.


Except for the half a dozen or so links I've posted which you conveniently ignore, showing success with ES cell treatments.

Ive got half a stiff after reading that.

Jesus **** H Christ, I stopped reading after a couple of wulfgangs posts, and have concluded that either he is the best troll on GA, or he is the biggest misinformed imbecile we have on this forum. I am leaning more towards troll as I believe no one can be the **** thick in real life, if some **** talked to me and spewed the amount of utter **** **** he does then I would punch him in his ***** troll moron face.

Chero's responses have been extremlely high quality.
Even tho he has curbed his ...for lack of a better word..'aggression', his posts have lost none of the impact. This could go down as the thread that ended all Wulfgang threads.

I personally dont think any one other than Chero could have carved their way through Wulf's arguments with the determination that is clearly necessary.

for sure baz

a real hipster trait - more authentic then the meme's u see on the interwebs - is that habit of snubbing people for "not getting it" that is not being "switched on" or to put those two things another way "cool"

when hipsters congregate in 5 mins they know, they have judged, if "your worth talking too" or hanging out with or if your just some annoying retard with no clue

the ironic thing is if u talked to a bogan he may well hate on the hipster because the hipster "doesn't get it"

the nice thing about the forum thing is people want to (well should want to) communicate and that doesnt just mean talking to people who u feel "get it"

what im getting at with all the preamble is chero has a gold star stat in that trait. I dont think id have the patience for the show he has put on in this thread even after 2 cups of strong coffee and an itch to type

I think I know what you mean.

There is a difference between people who snub those who "dont get it" and those who spend the time and effort to educate those who "dont get it".

I think Cherocha is making a concerted effort to convert Wulf.
Either that or he is training himself for somthing bigger than GA.

Any who, lets watch the fight shal we.

ROUND 6
*DING* *DING*

chero vs wulf makes good for GA's recent low value interactions

I am saying china was.



Yes they was. They were even involved in human cloning pre 2003



Yes you're right. Missed the whole debate about baby stem cell research in the Aus parliament where old julia and her sister hood wore shirts supporting the sisterhoods right to donate eggs. Which is why I posted this
About four days go. Remember someone saying how they bet ole julia didn't tell that part to the sisterhood.


Because it wasn't the topic. The topic was about how much of a fail embryonic stem cell research is and how embryos are indeed human.



Doesn't matter, as a supporter of abortion and the killing of human embryo's You have no right to complain about war. None. Thats going by your cow logic.



[quote='cherocha"]I couldn't make this stuff up. It's good that you're owning up to abusing your dog and being a bigot.[/quote]
You just did.



And my point was that you think certain life should be valued over other life. (Mine is more reasonable. I just think animals aren't as important humans. You think one human is more important than another. I don't know how you reason that.) I didn't belittle anyone for thinking abortion is ok. It is not my style. Why are you bringing up the Christian right/ I have used nothing but scientific facts, to debunk embryonic stem cell research.




seriously? With all the research you have done you don't know that the U.S gov is a huge fund provider for this research? And tens of millions? How much is "tens of millions"? Not enough even to make a big budget hollywood movie. Not much when you see how much the spend on research that holds promise
You do realise that Bush Approved federal funding in embryonic stem cell research back in 2001 don't you? I don't think you did.




And I said. Lots of if's and maybes and "looks promising " Looks hopeful" etc.

I'll have to respond tomorrow wulfy, got games to be playing.


I'm not sure that's to my credit.

Going to stick this one to the end though.

good man i gave up long ago

hang on this actually makes quite a bit of sense

yes they was

Thank god.
That means the "Carn Chero" banner I made wasn't a waste of crayon.

yuo carnt torque

at least most of my posts make sence

a musty scent too

According to every source I checked, no country had conducted clinical trials on people before 2009. Unless you can give me a source showing otherwise, I'll take your refusal to do so as conceding.


Setting aside your failure to acknowledge that the women aren't undergoing fertility treatment specifically to donate eggs - they're doing it in order to have children, and so likely care little for any result other than having conceived - it still doesn't explain why you so heavily criticise ES cell research and largely ignore IVF clinics.

Say you have a chicken farm that produces a surplus of eggs, and a committee of hobos have enlisted a small group of people to obtain some of the eggs for them. Now the eggs end up being so plentiful that the hobos have much more than they need (plus their cholesterol is dangerously high), and a large portion of the eggs are going to end up being wasted. Instead of dumping the eggs in the trash, the hobos decide they're going to donate some of them to Chicken Egg Technicians, who are conducting research in the hopes of making life better for both chickens and hobos alike, and even for the you, the chicken farmer. Instead of writing an angry letter to the group who are taking your eggs, or the hobos who are eating your eggs, you enlist a team of lawyers, politicians, and high profile religious leaders who blackball the Chicken Egg Technicians, cut their funding, and initiate smear campaigns that propagate disinformation painting them as baby killers and frankensteinian madmen.

That is how absurd the logic is behind the protestation of ES cell research.


Doesn't matter. As a supporter of war, capital punishment, and dog kicking, you have no right to complain about ES cell research. None. That's going by your Iraq logic.


I'm bringing up the christian right, because you are both a christian, and right-wing, and thus despite claiming your objection as your own, you have the exact same position and use the exact same arguments as the pedominant group opposed to ES cell research.

I don't think you have at any time used anything that could be even remotely construed as "scientific facts". You rely purely on the same emotive hyperbole that a semi-illiterate Texan with 12 children packed into a single room trailer is likely to be exhibiting on a protest sign outside an abortion clinic, with a blatantly misleading image that shows a 35 week old stillborn fetus with the label "baby murder".


Even after that restriction was lifted, it was almost impossible to get funding, and the research was limited to just a couple of dozen viable cell lines, and strictly limited by the FDA and other equivalent bodies in terms of what could be done. That company did not receive any federal funding, and tens of millions is quite a lot of money for a company to fork out for what was unapproved research with severe restrictions.

As for your comment on Bush, I quoted several paragraphs from, and linked to an article that you evidently didn't read:


And in the very limited time that human trials have been happening: some people with restored eyesight and locomotor function. With animal trials: the same, along with literally regenerating thyroid glands. Looks promising.

China has. It was also involved in human cloning.



"This month New York became the first American state to allow scientists to use public research funds to pay women for donating their eggs for use in research."
I didn't mention ivf because it wasn't topic. I did address that it was wrong when it was briefly brought up.




I don't care.
1. Embryos used in human embryonic research are alive.
2. I don't give a **** about chickens.




Yes I do. But since you think I don't. You shouldn't be protesting about the war if you support abortion. If you do then you're a hypocrite.




Yes, and your post aren't straight of the greens hand book. But even if I was influenced by the "Christian" right or what ever. It still doesn't change the facts I have presented




The u.s government has already allotted over 3 billions dollars.



I guess you didn't about how it has never been illegal to conduct embryonic research in the u.s?




I bolded the first bit for lols. But lets see (pardon the pun) you have the above. You had some improved eyesight. Notice I said improved not restored? These ppl where not blind. Then you have this.

Hmmmmmm.. Which is more awesome. I bolded some parts for the extra WOW factor.

That's nowhere near good enough wulfgang. That **** tier attempt does you a disservice.

Try again.

I know right. He's capable of greatness, but that last effort was a let down.

O noes. The cool kids don't think i am right.... i gives up.
Nah jk's. Lucky science isn't a democracy hey?
I can't really do much to spice up my posts. Facts doesn't leave much room for dramatics, unfortunantly.

A little bit more to add from a previous post

http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/13 ... nder/?cs=7

what happend wulf you use to be good